ON THIS WEEK’S episode of Possess a Good Future, Gideon Lichfield and Lauren Goode are joined by c, or as she is more broadly known, Grimes. Earlier this 365 days, she launched Elf.tech, a domain the build her followers can exercise AI to develop their have Grimes songs per her vocals and stems. They focus on why c wants to push the boundaries of AI art and why, despite being a techno-optimist at coronary heart, she’s terrified about our AI future.
Investigate cross-check the Immense Interview with c by Steven Levy within the September issue of WIRED. In case you uncared for our episode with Puja Patel, the editor in chief of Pitchfork, about the brand new wave of generative AI in music—and AI-generated Drake—you might maybe maybe presumably presumably bag up here. We furthermore contain plenty more reviews about all issues artificial intelligence.
You might maybe well always snoop on this week’s podcast through the audio player on this page, but at the same time as you prefer to deserve to subscribe with out spending a dime to get each episode, here’s how:
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Expose: This is an computerized transcript, that will maybe maybe furthermore possess errors.
Gideon: I disfavor the indisputable truth that I originate each sentence with “so.” This is so—or now not it’s so tiring!
Lauren: Hi, I’m Lauren Goode.
Gideon: And I’m Gideon Lichfield. And here’s Possess a Good Future, a podcast about how terrifyingly hastily every thing is altering.
Lauren: Every week we consult with someone with enormous, gallant, and each now and then unnerving strategies about the future, and we quiz them how we can all prepare to live in it.
Gideon: Our customer this week is the musician c, or as she’s better known, Grimes. You will hear us consult with her as each on this episode. This previous spring, she launched Elf.Tech, the build her followers might maybe presumably kind music with an AI-generated model of her issue and sound.[[Music]
Grimes (archival audio): I’m in being less famend. I am in making more refined art for, love, a smaller target market that’s more in, maintain of affection, more philosophically pushed, more refined art that’s presumably less, has less pop allure. Cherish, I pretty wanna originate issues that have not been done sooner than. Extra than I wanna, love, contain a success or one thing.
Lauren: So our superfans might maybe well furthermore consider that a pair of months within the past we had been talking to Puja Patel, the editor in chief of Pitchfork, about the brand new wave of generative AI in music and the blueprint every person used to be freaking out about AI-generated Drake. Now, within the encourage of the scenes, we had been furthermore looking to get ahold of c, due to we notion that her insights might maybe presumably be if truth be told treasured, and we have indirectly gotten her on the show.
Gideon: We furthermore, by the procedure, contain an interview with her by Steven Levy within the September issue of WIRED, which pretty went up on-line on WIRED.com this week.
Lauren: That’s trusty. And we wanted to consult with c on the podcast due to she is an artist who’s embracing AI as a substitute of running disquieted from it.
Gideon: Correct. So she establish her have music and issue on-line and said to her followers, most incessantly, “Lift out whatever you prefer to contain with it.” And if that sounds a little bit of accessible, smartly, that more or less sums up the dialog you might maybe maybe maybe be about to hear. We furthermore talked loads about the knowing capabilities of AI.
Lauren: Yeah, she talks loads about LLMs, or neat language models, which is the basis of this new generation of AI. And he or she’s incessantly optimistic, but we furthermore heard a little bit of bit about areas the build she’s fascinated by AI. And I deem her perspective is especially piquant here, due to she’s more steeped on this tech than one other artists. She’s even spending time at tech companies on currently and age, more or less incubating strategies. And famously, certainly, she is raising two early life with Elon Musk.
Gideon: Our dialog, as you might maybe maybe maybe furthermore quiz, went in relatively rather a lot of diversified instructions. We talked about art, education, politics, and the nature of masculinity.
Lauren: Yeah, that final one used to be an exact shock. But sooner than we get to the interview, a little bit of little bit of industry. We deserve to hear from you. We if truth be told originate. We read the reviews. We’ve an e-mail take care of. You might maybe well e-mail us at nicefuture@WIRED.com, or pretty leave us some notes to your common podcast app. Pronounce us what you prefer to deserve to hear more of. Pronounce us what you originate now not love. We are in a position to rob it, we’re grown-united states of americahere. But pretty tumble us a line. We love listening to from our listeners.
Gideon: And with that out of the procedure, our dialog with C is coming up trusty after this destroy.[[Music]
Gideon: OK. Successfully, c, the artist furthermore is mostly known as Grimes, welcome to Possess a Good Future.
Grimes: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Lauren: Are you having a pleasant future?
Grimes: Uh, I’m if truth be told having a pretty trusty future. I’m now not obvious every person is having a trusty future, which I if truth be told feel injurious about, but, love, I’m having a trusty future for my half.
Lauren: What originate you mean by that?
Grimes: Uh, I deem people are very stressed out, and now not unreasonably so, but I, I am fairly optimistic. Um, sure. I’m more optimistic, if truth be told, than I used to be a pair of years within the past.
Gideon: Successfully, we wanted to consult with you due to you seem, on the least more or less love, the epitome of the techno optimist within the humanities. Because when that false-Drake/The Weeknd tune dropped—the AI-generated one—your reaction wasn’t to freak out love every person else, on the different hand it used to be maintain of the categorical reverse. You said, “I need people to originate that to my music.” And also you launched the site Elf.Tech, which lets people exercise your issue and your stems to kind their have AI-generated music. So the build did that instinct come from to, love, flee headlong into the feared new thing?
Grimes: Successfully, I if truth be told feel love there might maybe be a pair of issues. One amongst the causes I did not if truth be told feel a loopy quantity of issue is that the music alternate is jarringly, I would narrate pathologically, litigious. So I used to be love, , this is never if truth be told a possibility to people, due to affection the powers that be will now not if truth be told let this variation into that damaging of a force, love here’s gonna be—it’s now not laborious to issue rob-downs on stuff love this. I’ve always hated how litigious the music alternate is. It be, or now not it’s always been one amongst the issues I disfavor about it the most, but I, I deem or now not it’s if truth be told trusty for AI, due to I deem or now not it’s gonna artificially gradual down how AI is oldschool—and particularly generative stuff—is oldschool in music namely. It be maintain of the precise alternate to flee case research, due to we’re pretty gonna contain a bit more time than every person else.
Lauren: You wish to had been angry by the exercise of AI in music for a while sooner than, , the maintain of attention that came to the Drake and The Weeknd mashup, trusty? Cherish, how prolonged contain you ever been angry by this for?
Grimes: Oh, we if truth be told tried to originate that love in 2019, or one thing love this. Uh, we, the technology pretty wasn’t on hand, but we always more or less wanted to opensource Grimes. It pretty wasn’t technically imaginable sooner than, but that, that’s been, that’s one thing we have been actively looking to determine for a extremely very prolonged time, if truth be told.
Lauren: I deem that there might maybe be this conception that there might maybe be now not much artistry engaging about creating AI music tracks. Cherish people deem, uh, , or now not it’s love DALL-E, love you pretty kind in a advisable and there might maybe be love some “beep bop bop” robot music happens and then love, bam, you might maybe maybe maybe furthermore contain gotten a false Grimes tune. How does it if truth be told work?
Grimes: Yeah. So the, one amongst the huge issues that I if truth be told care about is love, I if truth be told deem humans, love, we should work, , we should scenario ourselves. We originate now not learn if we originate now not originate that. I’m more or less in opposition to, love, pretty pure generative AI. I deem presumably there might maybe be some utility to it, but I deem we should, love, dangle that very in moderation. But, uh, the procedure this works, namely, or now not it’s, or now not it’s more love a synthesizer. Cherish at the same time as you might maybe maybe maybe furthermore contain gotten a vocal note, you might maybe maybe presumably presumably switch the timbre of it. So it makes exercise of, love, the vocal timbre of my issue as an different of your issue. So that you just might maybe maybe presumably presumably rob any a capella and contain the Grimes vocal. However the procedure this works is people are quiet writing and producing, and even singing, these songs. They’re pretty most incessantly switching their issue to my issue.
Lauren: What has taken aback you most about what’s been made the exercise of AI Grimes up to now?
Grimes: There might maybe be a pair songs that are love, I if truth be told, if truth be told, if truth be told need I made them. And people are those who taken aback me the most the build I used to be pretty love, or now not it’s so original. It be, or now not it’s love, , I’ve been talking about making love, Viking techno, love ethereal Viking techno, for a extremely very prolonged time, and I’ve for my half tried and pretty failed at that relatively rather a lot of occasions.
Gideon: Ethereal Viking techno. I wanna hear this now.[[Laughter]
Lauren: Yeah. Is there a category for that on Spotify?
Grimes: Yeah, no, and, on the different hand it used to be pretty love, it used to be so loopy ‘reason it used to be love, they made this thing. Cherish, pretty love the those who made it, pretty, they’ve particular abilities each in phrases of affection techno manufacturing and in phrases of affection, how love, the girl who sang it has maintain of affection, clearly is expert in some more or less love whatever Celtic-y Viking singing fashion that I am now not expert in. And love, they made one thing that used to be, I used to be love, “Oh my god, I need I made this so injurious.” But then I used to be love, here’s precisely love—the reason here’s much is love I would deserve to head learn and peek all this shit in characterize to kind this, and I, I, I originate now not know, love I—it pretty if truth be told blew me away. Cherish I used to be, I used to be extremely moved by it if truth be told. It used to be maintain of affection, it felt love, love at the same time as you if truth be told feel happy with your kid or one thing, or now not it’s love your legacy doing one thing love, I originate now not know, love I felt love the crying grandparent as my kid that maintain of affection takes on the family industry or one thing. Cherish, it used to be pretty piquant to head looking someone originate, love, a greater model of thing I’ve been aiming at.
Gideon: Lift out you suspect that Elf.Tech is one thing that other artists will exercise, or, , one thing in discovering it irresistible, this thought of licensing their issue and, and their, their stems to the overall public? Or is it more love a one-off stunt that you just potentially did due to you had been the first? Because, I reveal the reason I’m asking is it looks love there might maybe be gonna be a restricted flee for food for what’s if truth be told music fan fiction. And I don’t know the blueprint many artists are going to if truth be told feel love or now not it’s worth it to them to originate it, or what number of listeners are gonna if truth be told feel love they—they have to kind and snoop on that stuff, but I could maybe well furthermore very smartly be tainted.
Grimes: I deem or now not it’s if truth be told laborious to advise. I deem love, uh, I if truth be told feel love if—I need Drake/The Weeknd did it, due to I deem if a if truth be told enormous artist did it—it maintain of affection makes more sense to originate it with an even bigger artist than me, due to then if someone did write a sound hit it, it maintain of affection, I originate now not know, it pretty has more, more or less love legs inherently. I’m unheard of to head looking. We’ve now not if truth be told done any promotion of the fan stuff yet, and we’re pretty more or less love organizing it and sorting it. So I’m unheard of what happens after we if truth be told originate wade through the promotional route of with it, ‘reason some of it is, love, very trusty.
Lauren: Does that in actuality feel in any respect threatening to you? Or why does not it if truth be told feel threatening that someone is making art the exercise of your issue that you just—you have not made yet?
Grimes: I originate now not know if I neat wanna proceed with music a ton. I don’t know at the same time as you might maybe maybe maybe furthermore contain gotten adopted the full Grimes cycle, but love—
Grimes: I am love a extremely controversial figure on the web, and I would if truth be told moderately be, love, potentially less famend? Cherish I wanna get more into maintain of, love, performance art stuff love this and love the tech facet of issues. And, , Grimes used to be always maintain of more about performance art and, and more about how, love, interfacing with technology than pretty love fun songs anyway. It be always maintain of been love about whatever the limit of technology is and love what I’m in a position to originate with that. My love identity is never basically neat tied to love Grimes as a musical artist. I deem my identity is more tied to, love, whatever Grimes is in a performance art procedure. And I’m maintain of affection—
Lauren: It sounds love you might maybe maybe maybe be in a reinvention stage.
Grimes: Yeah, love I, I, I, I, I’m in being less famend. I, I am in making more refined art for love a smaller target market that’s more in maintain of, love, more philosophically pushed, more refined art that’s presumably less—has less pop allure. Cherish, I pretty wanna originate issues that have not been done sooner than bigger than I wanna, love, contain a success.
Gideon: Let’s talk a bit more about, then, the kind—the broader role of AI in art. So, um, at the same time as you spoke to our colleague, Steven Levy, who interviewed you for the magazine, he’s—one amongst the stuff you said to him used to be, “What’s moving to me about AI is that or now not it’s if truth be told fucking with what an artist is and what creativity is and what music is. Art work looks basic to the human experience to me.” But, on the the same time, you furthermore said that you just wanted to be, I deem—what used to be the be aware?—a self-replicating artist replicated by AI, and that you just suspect AI might maybe presumably substitute human artists. So the build, the build originate you come down—the build, what’s the relationship between the AI and the human creator?
Grimes: I, I deem relatively a total lot of parents deem or now not it’s love on or off; sure or no; AI replaces your full artists, or it does not. Phase of what I’m doing, or now not it’s now not basically, love—or now not it’s drawing procedure it very amorally and or now not it’s drawing procedure it more as an experiment. Where is this damaging? Where is it obvious? I, I deem one amongst the finest risks of AI trusty now might maybe presumably be—I’m less fascinated by, love, an AI, neat-intelligence taking on the realm than I am about LLMs most incessantly fully disincentivizing any individual from ever discovering out write all yet again, and, love, our relationship with language being fundamentally broken with out ruin.
Gideon: Yeah. I deem that’s what we anxiety about more as smartly.
Grimes: Yeah. Cherish, love and um, , the procedure people, love, would jailbreak the early LLMs and maintain of, love, push them to originate injurious or unhealthy issues so that we might maybe presumably figure out the build the stops and the safeties have to be—
Grimes: Cherish, I more or less deserve to originate unhealthy art issues and gaze the build or now not it’s if truth be told damaging.
Gideon: Cherish, what—what might maybe presumably be an example of a unhealthy art thing?
Grimes: I deem or now not it’s imaginable that generative music—fully generative music—might maybe well furthermore very smartly be if truth be told injurious. It can maybe maybe furthermore very smartly be if truth be told trusty too even though. But, love, I contain to, love, rob a technology sooner than we pretty, love, liberate all this generative art stuff. Cherish at the same time as you might maybe maybe maybe furthermore contain gotten a thing the build you might maybe maybe presumably presumably press a button, or now not it’s love Midjourney, and you might maybe maybe presumably presumably pretty be love, “I need this more or less tune.” And or now not it’s expert to your full music ever made and it pretty churns out the categorical music you might maybe maybe maybe furthermore contain gotten ever heard. At what point are we pretty fully cucking ourselves as a species? Cherish I if truth be told feel love, , or now not it’s love AI is gonna resolve aspects of science and medicine that love, would pretty rob us with out ruin or we might maybe well furthermore now not even be in a issue to resolve, or, , or now not it’s pretty sheer portions of affection data processing that love, love would rob people years and years to originate if we might maybe presumably even originate it. Cherish that is knowing to me. Fundamentally pretty replacing artists? That looks love one thing the build or now not it’s pretty love, why?
Grimes: I deem or now not it’s treasured to glimpse for the limits of creativity. You understand, I’m now not pronouncing we shouldn’t develop these instruments, but I’m pronouncing, presumably these instruments wants to be in museums, or presumably these instruments might maybe well furthermore quiet most productive output, love, if truth be told low quality music so that we quiet have to know kind music. We quiet must contain agency within the procedure. Cherish we can generate one thing and get—get chilly strategies, but love, you quiet deserve to return and, love, recreate it at the same time as you wanna professionally liberate it.
Lauren: It sounds love you originate even contain upright concerns about it, even though. Cherish you narrate you might maybe maybe maybe be—you might maybe maybe maybe be now not drawing procedure it morally, you might maybe maybe maybe be drawing procedure it experimentally. You oldschool the be aware stressed out a pair of occasions on the beginning of this podcast, it if truth be told jumped out at me. That’s now not pronouncing you might maybe maybe maybe be stressed out, but that people are stressed out about technology and its implications and—and you if truth be told feel fairly strongly that if we pretty had fully AI-generated music, that will maybe maybe be a injurious thing. Or if early life weren’t discovering out write due to LLMs had been doing all your full work, that that will maybe maybe be injurious. I mean, that’s assigning a upright worth to this technology, trusty? And that appears to be like to be if truth be told relatively a consideration for you as you might maybe maybe maybe be exploring it.
Grimes: So, OK. So here’s the refined thing. I deem or now not it’s furthermore tainted to now not experiment and gaze, but yeah, love what I’m pronouncing is love I—I deem the technology might maybe well furthermore quiet exist, but I deem it’ll furthermore quiet presumably be one thing you might maybe maybe presumably presumably now not pretty contain at house. You understand what I mean? I pretty deem there wants to be limits to how or now not it’s oldschool. Cherish I originate now not know if LLMs wants to be one thing that early life contain get entry to to. Or presumably we have LLMs, but I’m now not obvious we wants to be making LLMs that are love Shakespeare. Cherish, a huge debate I merit having, due to I even contain a chum who’s working on making love the finest author ever, and I’m love, why originate you wanna kind the finest author ever? Cherish, why will we wanna—
Lauren: The finest author LLM, you mean? Cherish a mannequin?
Grimes: Yeah, yeah. Cherish, love why, why will we wanna kind—why will we wanna kind 10X Shakespeare? Cherish why will we wanna rob that a long way from humans? Especially due to I if truth be told feel love language namely is love—we have co-developed with it. Language is a extremely diversified thing from solving science. Language is a phase of us. We favor it to outlive. The metaphor I always exercise is or now not it’s love our mitochondria. Cherish mitochondria is never phase of us. It does not piece our DNA, on the different hand or now not it’s a—we have a symbiotic relationship with it. It lives in our bodies and we need it to outlive. And language is, is maintain of same and I pretty if truth be told feel love sooner than we fundamentally switch our relationship with the thing that if truth be told makes us human, we might maybe well furthermore quiet originate more research, we might maybe well furthermore quiet originate assessments. We might maybe well furthermore quiet deem very, very, very, very in moderation about that.
Lauren: I wanna get encourage to one thing that came about shortly after you launched Elf.Tech. You on the starting build had establish no limits on what people might maybe presumably kind with your stems, but fairly shortly afterwards you needed to establish out a disclaimer pronouncing you did not favor poisonous lyrics. I mean, you had been most incessantly making a plea for decency on the web. You understand, no Nazi anthems. You did comment—unless or now not it’s one way or the opposite in jest—you had been if truth be told asking people now not to be assholes. I mean, what responsibility, one, originate you suspect that you just might maybe maybe maybe furthermore contain gotten to rob a examine to stay them as a individual that created a platform, and the build originate you suspect that line might maybe well furthermore quiet if truth be told be drawn, , around those that are the exercise of—or potentially abusing—one thing love a music technology platform?
Grimes: I deem or now not it’s more about the experiment. Cherish, I if truth be told deem deepfakes might maybe well furthermore quiet potentially be illegal. Cherish, I if truth be told deem we might maybe well furthermore pretty now not need them. There might maybe well furthermore very smartly now not be a utility in maintain of, love, the exercise of the Grimes issue. I pretty originate now not gaze a hugely enormous upside, but I gaze moderately relatively rather a lot of downside with deepfakes across the board—visual, audio, whatever. It can maybe maybe reason relatively rather a lot of unrest—political unrest.
Lauren: So that you just might maybe maybe maybe be taking a if truth be told laborious line. You are pronouncing deepfakes might maybe well furthermore quiet pretty now not be appropriate. They might maybe maybe maybe furthermore quiet now not be allowed.
Grimes: I’m now not fully obvious. I pretty deem or now not it’s—or now not it’s worth fascinated about. Or, love, the different thing is that it pretty wants to be if truth be told consent oriented. What I originate love is—, potentially making, as an illustration, an LLM that’s expert on every thing Aristotle ever wrote and love, , I originate now not know, if I used to be 18 and I could maybe presumably pretty crawl take a seat and quiz Aristotle questions for hours, that will probably be a if truth be told trusty thing. I originate now not know at the same time as you might maybe maybe maybe maybe relatively name that a deepfake at that time, but at the same time as you had love an LLM that’s expert on love your full finest thinkers of all time and, love, or now not it’s a personalized professor that you just might maybe maybe maybe furthermore contain gotten at house, and as an different of doing the frequent college system, you originate, love, on-line college and your teacher is, , Leibnitz and Nietzsche and frickin’, love, I originate now not know, pretty love your full much minds of all time.
Gideon: We’re taking demonstrate of which philosophers you had been pointing out, , pretty—[[Laughter]
Grimes: I if truth be told feel love there might maybe be one thing—there might maybe be furthermore ability for, love, huge upside. Cherish imagine, each child can contain get entry to to the finest teacher ever. And, um, , I, I deem there might maybe be relatively rather a lot of maintain of AI education, uh, ability that’s love if truth be told, if truth be told, if truth be told chilly.
Lauren: In an improbable world, love what would that college look love? What’s the predominant heart of attention?
Grimes: I deem, mostly about neighborhood constructing. And, making a social community for our early life that’s, love, if truth be told obvious with households that deem in a different blueprint. I used to be having such a laborious time until I started discovering other households with fogeys who’re more love me. I if truth be told feel love the first 365 days of having a kid used to be love one amongst the most now not easy, fucked years of my existence. And then as I started, , if truth be told bonding and, love, making better friends—love indirectly discovering fogeys that I’m in a position to if truth be told expose to and stuff—it pretty became so optimistic that or now not it’s love, or now not it’s supposed to be a communal, tribal thing. I deem one thing if truth be told piquant came about with the boomers the build, love, in a total lot of methods they’d a most critical destroy from the culture sooner than—, and love the sexual revolution and your full stuff that came about—and there might maybe be relatively rather a lot of stuff about the previous the build, love, relatively a total lot of parents had been love, yeah, love, the procedure society has always been, love, we should switch it. We deserve to substitute the procedure issues are about jog. We deserve to substitute the procedure issues are about gender. Cherish, we should pretty switch relatively rather a lot of fundamentals. But in a total lot of methods I deem we misplaced relatively rather a lot of, love, culture that every person can agree on. And relatively rather a lot of methods the culture oldschool to be did not kind room for every person, and so people understandably had issue with them, but I deem one amongst the finest issues we can originate trusty now might maybe presumably be make a resolution to rebuild culture. Now that we have maintain of, love, exploded every thing and, love, pulled every thing aside and, and we’re maintain of affection reevaluating nearly each a part of the procedure we capability morals and education and literally every thing—we cannot align AI until we align ourselves and we are neat now not aligned. Humans are neat now not aligned trusty now.
Gideon: I hear you navigating a more or less, I reveal, a great political space. I hear you talking love someone who’s phase of each left and trusty political groupings. You understand, you clearly—most people that you just hold out with in Silicon Valley, or around Elon, are libertarians or conservatives, and then there might maybe be relatively rather a lot of progressives as smartly, and from the backgrounds that you just habitually hold out in, I’m guessing. So am I trusty that I gaze early life looking to string collectively diversified political viewpoints and notion how they’ll furthermore even be integrated?
Grimes: Yes. I if truth be told deem one amongst our finest disorders trusty now might maybe presumably be the polarization. Cherish, I refuse to be left or trusty. Cherish, , love, I’m—I’m disquieted about what we’re doing to young men and the discourse around men trusty now.
Lauren: What phase scares you?
Grimes: There are relatively rather a lot of disorders with love male toxicity, but love—love we’re critically, love we’re pretty telling men they’re injurious for, love, issues that they cannot—love testosterone is love a loopy battle drug. Cherish why cannot there be a political platform that, love, makes space and room for—and honors—masculinity, love susceptible masculinity, and love encourages it to be better in a optimistic procedure, as a substitute of, love, tearing it aside, that’s quiet is love into ladies’s rights and get entry to to abortion and trans rights. It’s love, why are these items dichotomous? Cherish—love why are they struggling with each other? Cherish—
Lauren: What originate you suspect is an efficient blueprint to originate that even though?
Grimes: I—I deem for me, or now not it’s always about, love, the carrot and now not the stick. What I would love to head looking is maintain of, um, occasion of the trusty aspects of masculinity. Cherish, how originate you kind a discourse that, love, encourages men to, love, push themselves and, love, be chivalrous? And love—love how originate you romanticize, uh, a maintain of masculinity that’s if truth be told respectful of girls and supportive of self-discipline and love, I originate now not know, love your full shit every person makes fun of, but love—
Gideon: I deem I put what you might maybe maybe maybe be looking to advise all yet again. I mean, it feels love you might maybe maybe maybe be pronouncing, simply, the default blueprint to criticize poisonous masculinity is to rob a examine to rob aside masculinity itself. And as an different—
Grimes: I deem that, I deem that’s, I deem that’s what happens with—what’s occurring too much, is love in our makes an try to eliminate the issues which had been so, so damaging, I deem we’re tearing aside masculinity as a total.
Lauren: Must we originate a hastily-fire spherical?
Gideon: Sure, I will originate off. What keeps you up at night?
Grimes: We’ve an education disaster across the board, love more or less globally.
Grimes: Almost every thing to originate with how we raise early life.
Gideon: What makes you optimistic?
Grimes: Younger people, early life. I gaze relatively rather a lot of Gen Z stuff that’s love scary and injurious and traumatizing, but love each Gen Z person that I for my half know, I’m pretty love, “Wow, fuck yeah. You potentially will probably be so ill. Oh my God. And love, so enlightened.” I mean, my early life, or now not it’s love, you understand humans are if truth be told born if truth be told much. We pretty fuck ourselves up, but love we originate out superior. Cherish we originate out love enlightened, and, love, , I—I deem that offers me relatively rather a lot of religion, that love the pure issue of the human is, love, a—a pretty finest one.
Lauren: Successfully, c, Grimes, this has been a if truth be told huge-ranging and fun dialog. Thank you.
Gideon: Thank you loads for becoming a member of us.
Grimes: Yeah. Thank you guys loads for making the time. Worthy appreciated.[[Music]
Gideon: Lauren, I stumbled on talking to Grimes more or less a time out, I even deserve to advise. I originate now not know what precisely I used to be awaiting, but I deem I used to be awaiting this more or less running headlong into the future, let’s pretty embrace AI in all its sorts maintain of thing, and what struck me that came out of that used to be a if truth be told moderately nuanced space of thoughts around what we might maybe well furthermore quiet and might maybe well now not be the exercise of AI for.
Lauren: I mean, I deem that at the same time as you interview—let’s name her a celeb, due to she is a celeb—there might maybe be a little bit of little bit of a hazard, and presumably or now not it’s the the same at the same time as you interview a high tech govt, in treating them love an oracle. Cherish the leisure they are saying must be the procedure forward for AI. And I deem what this dialog underscored for me is that she’s figuring it out as she goes along pretty love the the leisure of us. Cherish or now not it’s considerably encouraging that the one who has been on the forefront of this “at the same time as you might maybe maybe presumably presumably now not beat ’em, be half of ’em” circulation for AI music is furthermore a little bit of bit puzzled about the build it’ll furthermore crawl. She’s quiet an optimist, but she has precise concerns, even though it furthermore looked love her concerns are less about music, due to she’s more or less reinventing herself out of doorways of music, and he or she’s more terrified about education within the broader sense and within the school room sense.
Gideon: The tie that I noticed between these two issues is that she used to be warning of the danger that neat language models might maybe presumably pretty kind us stupid, due to whether or now not they’re producing music from scratch or whether or now not they’re shortcutting the writing route of, or now not it’s too easy to depend on them—to lean on them to originate jobs that we wanted previously to learn abilities for. And so in education, she used to be pronouncing, I need my child in insist to read and write and learn to exercise language in that very deep procedure that we have all, up up to now, needed to learn to exercise it, due to otherwise we’re pretty now not smartly equipped to navigate the realm.
Lauren: It be piquant, even though, due to I believed that after she used to be talking about the procedure forward for education, that’s when she started to contradict herself a little bit of bit. And, to be pretty, here’s if truth be told complex stuff that relatively rather a lot of us are looking to determine. But pretty for instance, she requested, “Why will we wish to kind a Shakespeare AI? Why would we wish to kind a neat language mannequin that’s the realm’s ideal author?” But then, in one other phase of the dialog, she talked about having a Nietzsche AI or a Newton AI on hand in classrooms to educate early life.
Gideon: I if truth be told did not gaze a contradiction there, due to I believed she used to be pronouncing we originate now not deserve to kind a Shakespeare AI that generates finest works of drama and poetry due to then we’re if truth be told pretty taking away all human creativity. However the basis of an AI that you just might maybe maybe presumably presumably contain interplay with as a teaching tool is if truth be told very diversified, and I love the basis of having one thing that’s smartly-expert enough to engage in Socratic dialog with you and force you, as a teenager, to peek your assumptions, asks you questions about the stuff you might maybe maybe maybe furthermore contain gotten said, it does that more or less practice that, if truth be told, lecturers mostly originate now not contain time to originate with early life thanks to learn room sizes. That can maybe maybe furthermore very smartly be a extremely, very diversified thing from asking one thing to write better works than Shakespeare or better songs than Bob Dylan.
Lauren: I deem what some of this brings up in my mind is—I’m anticipating this inevitable next stage of us talking about AI, the build we’re now not talking about LLMs with out ruin, due to then the LLMs are pretty the foundational tech—or now not it’s a phase of AI—and we’re talking about these issues love art, love education, love copyright, that I deem are pretty more most critical conversations to be having trusty now.
Gideon: I deem that c is drawing piquant distinctions between makes exercise of of LLMs, as a substitute of claiming LLMs trusty or LLMs injurious, on the different hand it sounds love she’s furthermore struggling to determine what the foundations wants to be. I originate now not—I originate now not know the answer to that both. I’m now not obvious if we can kind strategies. That’s phase of the issue here.
Lauren: Correct. And that applies to allege moderation too, due to, , in a total lot of methods her platform, Elf.Tech, solves provenance, trusty? Which is this thought of, love, belief the build the material is coming from when or now not it’s being oldschool in AI-generated art. However the basis that someone might maybe presumably then rob those tracks and exercise her issue to kind a Nazi anthem, and then the ask around who indirectly is accountable for moderating that, is quiet an unanswered ask.
Gideon: And he or she didn’t if truth be told solution that ask at the same time as you tried to quiz her that.
Lauren: No. And my instinct says that she is considerably accountable for that. But then if someone shares that note to YouTube, then does it change into YouTube’s issue? And is her platform pretty the tool the build it used to be created? And can you if truth be told establish responsibility to the tool? It be a if truth be told sticky ask. And yeah, she did not if truth be told appear to contain an solution, . And so I originate—I originate gaze her fight a little bit of bit with love, it—it looks love each her have identity of who she wants to be on the web and if she even wants to be as fresh on the web, but furthermore as she’s inserting art out to the realm, what the boundaries are around that art.
Gideon: She furthermore said, “I if truth be told deem deepfakes might maybe well furthermore quiet potentially be illegal.” And then she looked to crawl into reverse on that. It looks a extremely, very fuzzy ask here. What originate you suspect—might maybe well furthermore quiet deepfakes be illegal?
Lauren: That did more or less open up this portal into my brain of affection, oh yeah, why will we favor deepfakes in society? Cherish each technology, there are methods in which it’ll furthermore very smartly be oldschool as a tool for trusty, but, love, incessantly, once I dangle one thing love the Nancy Pelosi slurring speech video—which wasn’t even a deepfake, it used to be pretty the exercise of technology to gradual her speech and kind her sound intoxicated. We’re entering a if truth be told, if truth be told charged political generation at this moment, and, and deepfakes are fully going to be abused. So when she said that, I used to be love, oh yeah. Must we be taking a more difficult line on deepfakes?
Gideon: Successfully, I originate now not deem we might maybe well furthermore quiet. It be precisely this issue that, as with so many of those applied sciences, while you try to ban both a technology itself or a exercise of a technology reminiscent of deepfakes, you flee into never-ending edge cases the build banning it for a explicit reason looks unnecessarily censorious. So I’m now not obvious that you just might maybe maybe presumably presumably map any optimistic lines around what’s and is never allowed—both as a long way as a technology goes, and even a particular utility of that technology.
Lauren: So we might maybe well furthermore quiet potentially focus on masculinity. Which is one thing I did not deem I would basically narrate on the Possess a Good Future podcast, but here we are. You requested her a pretty considerate ask about her politics and the people she hangs out with and the blueprint it looks love she’s looking to string a needle here. And then she started talking about masculinity and the blueprint she’s if truth be told terrified about men. What did you fashion of her—her response to you?
Gideon: I believed it used to be piquant that she picked up on masculinity because the issue to illustrate why she does not name with both left or trusty. And I name with what she’s pronouncing. There used to be an notion column in The Washington Put up from a pair of weeks within the past that I read, by Christine Emba, the build she talks about the indisputable truth that there might maybe be a blueprint of young men now not having trusty masculine role models. And due to this, trusty wingers love Jordan Peterson are entering into the hole and dominating the discourse around what masculinity is supposed to head looking love. And that’s fueling these coarse debates, these coarse culture wars. And one amongst the issues that took place to me once I used to be angry by that’s that, as a overjoyed man, I if truth be told feel there are if truth be told severely better role models for overjoyed men in be masculine in methods that are now not poisonous. And I deem that’s due to within the overjoyed neighborhood, there might maybe be a maintain of more of a custom of intergenerational mentorship and relationships that give youthful people an example of what it is love to be an older man who behaves in a trusty procedure.
Lauren: I believed it used to be if truth be told well-known that she brought up male toxicity and men’s rights at the same time as you requested that ask about politics, due to selecting that matter in itself is political. It’s a long way such a lightning-rod issue. It if truth be told made me favor I incessantly is a fly on the wall in her conversations about this with, narrate, Elon Musk.
Gideon: And even supposing we did not quiz her about her relationship with Elon Musk on this interview, Steven Levy did within the interview that’s printed on WIRED.com this week, and you might maybe maybe presumably presumably read about it there.
Lauren: So Gideon, originate you suspect that you just might maybe maybe maybe be going to originate being attentive to more ethereal Viking techno music?
Gideon: I contain to know what ethereal Viking techno music is, on the different hand it made me deem of Sinead O’Connor, and I even had been being attentive to more Sinead O’Connor now not too prolonged within the past.
Lauren: How did that kind you suspect of Sinead O’Connor?
Gideon: Because I deem it used to be the ethereal phase. There used to be one thing about her issue that—that pretty comes through the mist and makes me deem of unhappy and a long way-off lands. And that’s presumably what I—I dunno what ethereal Viking techno music is. Maybe I could maybe well furthermore quiet originate a Spotify glimpse for it.
Lauren: My other podcast cohost, Michael, has urged Swedish psych-pop to me, which I started being attentive to this weekend. So I’m now not relatively into ethereal Viking techno yet, but I’m working my procedure there. I’m fairly obvious the algorithms are going to originate recommending it to me shortly enough.
Gideon: Alright, smartly at the same time as you ogle some trusty stuff, let me know what it is.
Lauren: Successfully after we bag some trusty stuff, we might maybe well furthermore quiet potentially let c know what it is.
Gideon: Ah, fully. That’s trusty. She said she used to be procuring for it.
Lauren: Maybe it’ll even be hers.
Gideon: That’s our show for currently. Thank you for listening. In case you prefer to deserve to hear more from c, or Grimes, you might maybe maybe presumably presumably check out her interview with Steven Levy on-line at WIRED.com.
Lauren: Possess a Good Future is hosted by me, Lauren Goode.
Gideon: And me, Gideon Lichfield. In case you like the show, you might maybe maybe maybe furthermore quiet expose us, leave us a score and a overview wherever you get your podcasts, and originate now not neglect to subscribe so you might maybe maybe presumably presumably get new episodes each week.
Lauren: You might maybe well furthermore e-mail us at nicefuture@WIRED.com.
Gideon: Possess a Good Future is a manufacturing of Condé Nast Entertainment. Danielle Hewitt from Prologue Projects produces the show. Our assistant producer is Arlene Arevelo.
Lauren: We are going to be encourage here next Wednesday, and until then, contain a pleasant future.
Movement course: Quenton Stuckey; AI backgrounds: Sam Cannon; lighting fixtures kind: Frank Rios; lighting fixtures support: Jack Duffy; digital tech: Logan Bingham; PA: Bobbin Singh; manufacturing kind: Wesley Goodrich; styling: Turner/The Wall Neighborhood; styling support: Joey Sigala; hair: Preston Wada/Rare Creatives; hair support: Amy Ruiz; SFX MUA: Malina Stearns; SFX MUA support: Sasha Glasser; MUA: Alexandra French/Ahead Artists; MUA support: Kayli Rachelle Davis; nails: Stephanie Stone/Ahead Artists; XR Studios; SN37.*
Grimes: high and pants by Sami Miro Traditional.